Thursday, September 12, 2019

Leave or Remain, That's the Question



map of Great Britain*

I'm not enthusiastic about  countries joining unions and federations, and I'm well aware of the fact that once - In - , it's very tricky to get - Out -.  Having said that, let's have a very brief look at 'Brexit'.

Great Britain wants out of the European Union.
So far, things don't look good for her; Let's hope the efforts invested in the above direction (Brexit) won't turn GB (or is it UK?) "into the best show in town".  

GB has a North  Ireland  problem, a Scotland problem, a monarchy problem, but the real problem lies elsewhere, and is common to all countries, not only to GB. It's called leadership problem.

Countries hold elections in order to enable their people to choose someone capable of forming a government that will decide things for them,  not  call for referendums (as the former british PM, Cameron, did). Referendum is the tool of the non-leader, a way of letting the "mob" rule even after the elections.
But before we blame him or any other leader/non-leader, we have to examine the whole picture, and it's  a rather gloomy one.

It seems, the old  western political map of  parties, elections, parliament, coalition,  opposition - doesn't work any longer (See USA where almost half of the population refused to accept the results of the last  elections).

In my humble opinion (and upon examining things in my own country), the above situation is, partly, because of the constantly growing diversity within a country's population, which brings about a great diversity of interests, and ultimately diviseveness.

Diversity makes life look more exotic but it comes at a huge price. 
It  makes democracy or the so-called democracy, a big Burden. and not at all an efficient system.  Unless there's some new, up-to-date efficient political/social system on the way, divisiveness and corruption within nations, and even extinction, yes, extinction of nations (with or without  Mother Nature's help),  are likely to occur in a fairly accelarated mode - and no leader, elections or referendums, could do anything to stop it. 

It's a pesimistic view of things, I know that, but then reality (inclusive, the reality in my own country) is not an optimistic one at all.

As for Great Britain, I wish her Good Luck whatever she chooses: leave or remain. She can always turn to Shakespeare and count on him for Honor and Fame,(the last paragtaph rhymes: remain/fame/ I like that :)

* internet map

65 comments:

  1. I need a little time to digest all that you have said here, but in terms of Brexit, I am simply not familiar enough with all the ramifications involved to make an informed remark. My gut reaction would be that I would favour them remaining part of the European union. Obviously the British themselves are having a hard time coming to a conclusion, and whatever that outcome ultimately happens to be, half the population is going to be unhappy.

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    1. I think the EU should show some generosity to Great Britain, if the brits insist on leaving. I would hate to see GB humiliated and forced to leave without a proper agreement.
      EU won't lose esteem by showing good will; she will only gain the respect of many people and heads of state.

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  2. "See USA where almost half of the population refused to accept the results of the last elections..."

    I think the media made it look worse than it was. Most people didn't take to the streets. I think he has become even more popular since then. People love him, but don't tell pollsters.

    I think you and I have a similar outlook on Brexit. It seems strange to me how the government is handling it. The people voted to leave, but their leaders are fighting them.

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    1. Well, judging by how things are looking now (out of control), the referendum was probably a mistake. The key to end this unpleasant experience, lies perhaps in the hands of the EU people in charge of the agreement to be signed regarding GB's leaving the union.

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    2. The pollsters reflect what the people who take the polls tell them. As for most people loving Trump I find that to be the most incredulous statement I can imagine. And he is almost universally reviled in the rest of the world.

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    3. Who said anything about loving Trump. Trump is not the issue; it's the principle of democratic elections that is at stake.
      People have to accept the result of elections whether they like it or not. Otherwise they get chaos.

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    4. Read Sandi's comment above. You don't think she is talking about Trump?

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    5. I don't like Trump, but he definitely isn't as hated as Obama was around the world, a thing most Americans don't understand. Trump definitely is lots of bad things, but Obama is seen as a sort of a modern Hitler around the world (under world I mean world, not just the west) because he bombed tons of countries and also started the biggest intercontinental exodus of millions of people from Asia to Europe, the world has ever seen, so I'd say Mr. David Gascoigne's comment is the most incredulous statement I can imagine, not Sandi's.

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    6. Sorry, I didn't know you were referring to Sandi. Still, she's entitled to an opinion, and she thinks Trump is popular. After all, she knows things better than me or you. We don't live in America.

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    7. Obama's Arab Spring campaign was a very bloody one, and it indeed opened the Exodus of millions from Asia to Europe, placing Europe in a terrible position.
      And yet he's like teflon. his name is not mentioned in connection with the atrocities. The same applies to Hillary Clinton. She was allowed to run for presidency despite the email affair and the Bengazzi affair . In Israel, both would have been in jail. We already had a president and a PM in jail. Netanyahu is also struggling to avoid jail. It's good to know people pay for their deeds.

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    8. I've read through all of the comments..
      It's a good job 'DEZMOND' is'nt a politician,
      the world would be in a terrible state, with his point of view..! :(.

      I do agree with about Trump though..I'm surprised the man is still alive...!!!

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    9. You haven't specified what's your objection to Dezmond's point of view. Perhaps it's his positive opinion of unions that you don't like.
      I personally agree with him on socialism, on Obama, on Trump. Not sure about unions, but there are many who strongly believe in the Union's power to strenghten the countries that are part of it.

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  3. Replies
    1. Thank you, Pamela. I'm glad and flattered that you think so.

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  4. Interesting thoughts on diversity

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    1. By diversity I mean not only ethnical diversity, but also religious vs. secular diversity.
      We've got new elections next week, mainly because of matters regarding orthodox and non-orthodox conflicts.

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  5. Interesting to read a Brexit post, from a different perspective.

    Just a small point, as mentioned it, it is the UK, not just Great Britain that is set to leave the EU. Great Britain is the island comprising of Scotland, England and Wales. The UK is "The United Kingdom of Great Britain and Northern Ireland".

    David Cameron was a weak leader, but his calling for the referendum was the culmination of something, not the start of it. The EU has seen to the end of all Conservative Prime Ministers from Margaret Thatcher in the 90's right through to Theresa May this year, and we can only assume at some point it will lead to the demise of Boris Johnson too.

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    1. Thank you very much for your comment. I've learnt a lot from it, and I'm grateful to you for that.
      Hopefully, the crisis will end soon, in a satisfactory manner for all involved parties: the leavers, the remainers and EU.

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  6. I like unions as I believe people are stronger together and we enrich eachother when joining forces, Europe is much stronger than it was when all the countries were on their own, no matter what UK (a traditionally pompous and self-centred tyranny of infamous world enslavers) says. My old country Yugoslavia was the perfect example of how unity can be powerful and beneficial to people, which is exactly why USA and the West destroyed it as they could not let something like that happen, they like us nice and separate to rule us easier. We had free schooling, free health system, free state apartments and summer resorts etc. That kind of socialistic system is not something the West would allow to remain as an evidence of something like that being successful, as it opposes their capitalism. Old Yugoslavia had seven republics, some of it were Catholic, some Orthodox, some Muslim and they all lived in peace and happiness and progress. That can only happen when there is no poisoning element thrown in from outside. However, in modern age, there are so many political systems that are design not to unite but to put a yoke on its subjects. My Vojvodina is typical example, Serbia takes all our taxes and returns less than 1%, can you believe it? Law says they should give back 7% which is ridiculous in itself. I know similar problems are also present in Northern Italy, Spain, Belgium etc where richer regions are forced to take care of the poor ones, which is fine as long as there is respect.

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    1. Yugoslavia was socialist, socialism being a better system than communism. However, in both systems school, health, housing were free - which was quite a big deal.

      No matter what one thinks of the british people, the british culture gave us so much, that no one can be indifferent to this 'brexit' crisis and its impact on Britain and its heritage.
      I wish it gets solved quickly.

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    2. I hope so too, Duta, I think there are more people in UK who'd like to stay in EU and remain a part of Europe, but like in most other countries these days, the right wing ignorants are currently louder. It is the same in my country and many others right now, sadly.

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    3. I'm neither right wing nor left wing. Far from it. I try to keep away from politics and politicians as I dislike them both. I seldom write on these matters, but sometimes, I feel I have to react or comment - like now.

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    4. I like it when you post your opinions on these matters, Dutie, as I consider you a wise and experienced lady who isn't influenced by modern trends and propaganda.

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    5. Thank you, Dezmond. That's a great compliment.

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  7. Very difficult topic, but so well written.I was a bit sad for GB leaving us, meaning EU, but I understand that was a choice of the nation. Hope all the British people will do ok after Brexit and I wish them all the best☺

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    1. Difficult indeed. You've raised an important matter in your comment - the british people after Brexit.That's going to be interesting, if indeed there will be a Brexit, after all.

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  8. The original political problem was that in the UK, as in most EU member states, the whole political establishment has long been in the talk for the EU -- both major political parties are pro-EU. This meant that the rising popular discontent with the EU had no "legitimate" vehicle through which to express itself politically. When the political establishment won't address the major political question of the day, democracy risks becoming dysfunctional.

    Cameron was always just as pro-EU as the rest of the establishment. He originally conceived the referendum as a tactic to help him negotiate a better deal for the UK with the EU. His idea was to negotiate a new deal, then have the people vote on whether to stay in or not. That is, the referendum was a kind of threat against the EU oligarchy -- if they didn't make enough concessions, they might lose the UK entirely. Cameron never wanted the UK to leave the EU and probably never thought there was any real risk that the voters would choose to leave. The establishment always underestimated the amount of popular discontent over the issue.

    The main problem with the EU is that it is steadily taking more and more control over its member states, and it is a non-democratic (and highly corrupt) institution. The people with the real power are not elected by the people. The UK was gradually losing its sovereignty to an oligarchical, German-dominated quasi-empire.

    Theresa May didn't do a very good job of negotiating the terms of Brexit, but then, she was just another establishment pro-EU politician, doing something she didn't believe in out of a sense of duty since the voters had spoken. Her deal was repeatedly rejected by Parliament and the EU refused to negotiate a better one. The EU oligarchy is playing hardball because they don't want Brexit to succeed. They know that if one country leaves and "gets away with it", others may try to leave too.

    It's hard to say what will happen now. Much of the establishment in the UK is still trying to prevent Brexit, will of the voters be damned. Johnson wants to get it done, but he's not a very skilled politician.

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    1. Thank you for your enlightening comment. I'm not very familiar with UK inner politics. Judging by the consequences, though, I believe the referendum was a mistake.

      They all want, or, at some point, wanted out of the EU, especially Greece, Spain, Italy. Well, it's rainy out there without the german-french umbrella. So, they're still in. The EU oligarchy has done well so far, so it's time to soften and change attitude towards UK. They were too tough on Theresa May.

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  9. From what I gather on Brexit, there was a lot of information manipulation in the initial referendum and many (and I mean HUGE many) didn't understand the significance of leaving and how it would be likely to affect any number of critical issues. Is it a "fair vote" when the information is not fully explained or even false? I don't think so. Maybe many still would leave but at least with full knowledge. After all the hassle and such, I believe a new referendum is the only way to really solve this once and for all. If the people still believe to leave, then I guess that's it. But they should know the whole story. And if it's remain that comes up, then I know at least two dozen Brits who will be thrilled. Personally, I believe in being part of the EU is a good thing for Britain on many levels. But no matter what, I hope something good is the endgame.

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    1. True. Many had no idea, no knowledge of what it was all about.
      As for a new referendum, I'm rather pessimistic about its effectiveness, but you may be right.

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  10. You took on a BIG subject here, DUTA...one I would dare not tackle, as I'm sure someone would shoot me down. You did so, with fairness and thoughtfulness, and that's something that's rare, unfortunately. I'll read your words, and the comments of others, and learn more than I know. Good post, DUTA.

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    1. Since most people play 'politically correct' I was conscious, while writing the post, that I might get no comment and even lose readers/followers. But I thought I have to be true to myself, first of all.
      Thanks for the comment, for being there for me, and staying my follower.

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  11. Lots of good discussion above.
    I liked your rundown on the situation Duta.
    I look on fairly bewildered at the schemozzle that is going on now in the UK - such a waste of time and money.

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    1. Thank you, Sue, for your kind words.
      I don't have your art talent, so I sometimes land on treacherous soil.
      Yes, such a waste of time and money, this brexit affair!May God help!

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  12. Love your post and all the conversations.
    I agree with Dezmond that I like unions, but I am going to say the same "Good Luck, either remain or leave"

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    1. Thanks, Evi, for your kind words.
      I suppose, unions are not bad, after all. I'm not against, but I'm not thrilled about them, maybe because I'm individualistic in nature.

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  13. Many here in North America truly don't understand the UK and EU issues. Not day-to-day. Thank you for your point of view.
    It is so very complicated, both staying and leaving.
    Canada has just begun a federal election process. It's going to be a ride. We love our multicultural, diverse land.

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    1. There's always this tendency to join a bigger political/administrative body hoping to solve problems. But then it turns out this joint actually creates problems.

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  14. P.S. Our candidate with the turban is the New Democratic Party leader, Duta. He's new and doing really well.

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    1. Well, he certainly stands out among the candidates. adds color and interest to the political race. I like the turban; it'll probably become latest cry in fashion:)

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  15. Initially the idea of creating a united Europe was an excellent idea. No borders anymore no work permits the same money all very positive things. But then came a time with bad leaders who let it just go and took countries in the Union who were not ready yet. May this Brexit drama woke the politicians up ! Hopefully. For the UK a Brexit would be a disaster !

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    1. It's sad when good ideas turn into bad reality. I remember well the Greece saga. Now it seems rather quiet; hopefully the EU has learnt its lessons and is now on the mend.

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    1. I totally agree with you. It's a topic that teaches us a lot about decisions on the national level, about leaders, elections, and referendums.

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  17. This is an excellent post with interesting and thought provoking information, thank you for sharing.

    I've heard only a little about this before, but have never taken the time to learn more about it. Thanks to you I now have a bit more insight into it. Thanks for the enlightenment.

    Wishing you a great Weekend!

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    1. Thanks a lot for your kind words. I'm glad you feel my post has given you more insight into the matter.
      A great weekend to you too!

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  18. Hi Duta, Like the commenter above, I also am not knowledgeable about this, so I will not even try to put in my two cents worth, but am impressed by your thorough commentating and informing. And your realistic approach to presenting your columns. Have a Blessed weekend !!♡

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    1. Hi Shayndel. Thanks for giving it a try, and read it. Both UK and Japan are islands. There is perhaps something about islanders that keeps them apart from the others.
      I suppose EU will make it easier for UK, and let its people go on their independent journey.

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  19. It will be called the British country formerly known as the United Kingdom.

    New follower.

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    1. I sort of got lost among the various names.
      Anyway, it's gonna be interesting during the upcoming weeks, though perhaps scary for many Brits. The unknown is always scary. Their PM is having some crucial talks in Bruxelles.

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  20. Replies
    1. Thank you Marie. The points are of a general nature, as I'm not familiar with details. I've got a certain picture from what I've learnt from the Media, and as we all know, they don't always stick to the facts.

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  21. It is neither GB or UK...Britain is no
    longer 'Great'..Just Britain...UK..NO!
    This country is no longer United..Scotland
    want independence..Wales think the same way..!
    And Ireland..Less said the better..!

    We! The working man in the street are fed up
    with Brexit..3yrs..it's a disgrace..! ;(.
    This country like many others is run by...
    Liars..Cheats..and Thieves..!
    There is 'NO' argument..it's been proved so
    many times by the media..and the police!
    Come back Gut Fawkes..ALL is forgiven..!!!

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    1. I'm afraid England might, indeed, ultimately find herself alone without Scotland, Ireland and Wales. But now, it's still UK (United Kingdom).
      Hopefully, there'll be some agreement, accepted by both UK and EU towards the 31 of October.

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  22. Hi DUTA. I’m back, just saying hi, stopping in to show my face. I hope you are enjoying your day. Enjoy yourself!

    Wishing you all the best!

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    1. How very nice of you! All's well, thank God.
      All the best to you too!

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  23. You can see that you love traveling. I wasn't in Ireland and I live in the UK and visit cities and take pictures in a blog.
    The weather in England is changeable.

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    1. Hi, Agnes.
      Thanks for stopping by. I understand that you're a polish young woman living in England. The photos in your blog are very good! As for the weather in England, well I suppose you'll get used to it.

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  24. awesome article..
    thank for your sharing

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    1. Thank you for visiting and leaving a very kind comment on my post.
      It's nice to have a reader from so far away!

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  25. Ah Brexit! Cameron should never have called a referendum, but he did and I believe he thought there was no way that Leave would win. I understand the vote wasn't legally binding, merely advisory, but maybe I'm wrong. The result was very close, perhaps too close to implement change. But..., many people voted Leave after being given false information (mainly generated by arch Leaver and anti establishment, political renegade, Dominic Cummings) such as the incorrect red bus NHS financial figure, immigration inaccuracies, lies about Turkey's imminent joining of the EU, and blatant scaremongering by the right-wing press (mainly The Sun). I understand that many people have now changed their minds about Leaving, having seen the real consequences of voting Leave. So many, that a strong swing towards Remain, combined with the fact that many elderly Leavers have since passed away and been replaced by an influential number of Remain youngsters who have now reached voting age, surely justifies the popular idea of a second vote or, indeed, a cancellation of the whole thing. But maybe it's all too late. Disaster looms.

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    1. No doubt, your analysis is correct. The referendum was not a wise step, to say the least.
      Now, what next? Nobody seems to know, and naturally, many are worried and concerned, both in Britain and in Europe.
      Thanks for your detailed and interesting comment.

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  26. Duta, this was a very interesting post to read, as were the comments too.

    Will BREXIT happen? We will have to wait and see!
    Meanwhile the 31st October is getting nearer!

    All the best Jan

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